GALACTICA

Thank you, these are the thoughts I've been trying to articulate.

They have made Tigh look as much like an Islamic terrorist leader as possible - beanie, missing eye (see Abu Hamza, the Blind Sheik , etc...), white beard, even his mannerisms. But I never thought Tigh was stupid enough to come up with suicide bombing.

Also, since bomber knew his target was Gaius, why did he still blow himself up when he saw the Cylon was giving out the badges and the president was a no show? He's not an automaton, and he knew his purpose wasn't to kill random humans. I was sure he was going to make the decision to forgo the bombing on his own right until the moment he said his wife's name.

I think the episode proved itself that the Cylons don't care. They brought up killing Baltar before Tigh did. They also brought up killing most the humans before the bombings became more frequent. And when Caprica Six objected to coercing Baltar, they shot her to put her out of commission for a while.

Yet it seems like the writers ignored half their own dialogue when plotting out the episode!
 

Hey, I think that you simplify things a bit too much when you discuss things in terms of 'leftists' and when you fail to see the complexity in both sides of the Cylon Occupation. I, in fact, see that life would be fine on New Caprica if the Cylons just left the humans on their own, or if the humans had not rebelled. I the show speaks to the complexity of the situation. As the human rebellion builds, it becomes neccesary for the cylons to become increasingly inhuman in their responses. The insanity of both sides feeds off the insanity of the other side and Chaos rules. Additionally both sides have internal strife, but the new tactics on the human side have galvanized the cylon side while dividin the human side. In response, the harsh tactics of the cylon side now will galvanize the human side. Thus the split between the two becomes very clear, except for those who see a different path (Caprica six on the cylon side and the collaborators on the human side).
Now, I too, feel that the heavy tie to the current situation in Iraq makes the show a bit less enjoyable to watch because I cannot help but make comparisons when I watch (which takes the enjoyment away), but to be fair, the whole show has been built upon the terrorism/Iraq war conflict from the outset, so really it is the writter's perogative to take it to the max. If we, as veiwers, did not pick up on that theme 2 seasons ago, that just speaks to our lack of awareness.
 

I have to agree with Michael and axolotl, the GLARING similarities to the left’s view of the current situation in Iraq really bothers me. I don’t watch the show for political commentary/analogy; if I want my daily dose of “America is wrong” I will turn on CNN, MSNBC, The Daily Show and Reel Time Bill Mahr. I was watching the show because, until this current episode, I thought it was extremely well put together, interesting to no end and really demonstrated the complexities of human nature. At every turn I was convinced I was watching something new and fresh, it was a great departure from what is currently on. I loved it and waited with eager interest to see what was going to happened in Season 3 because of the excellent cliffhanger they left us with.

But now I feel like I am being lectured to, again, by yet another show whose writers have an obvious problem with America’s current foreign policy. It is and never was the duty of the shows that are on to expound on their notions of the current state of affairs. I realize that they, as artists (for lack of a better word) feel compelled to express their point of view in their work, but this kind of exposition isn’t new or original, it doesn’t take the imagination and creativity that the shows previous plot lines and stories took. Instead it is simply taking what is in the headlines and constructing a story around that. Tell me, what’s so awe inspiring about that? What makes me, just your average show watcher, want to keep tuning into a show that now is a facsimile of every other “preachy” “blame America first” show that is saturating our airwaves?

So now I am REALLY turned off and as a result I am most likely not going to continue to watch the show. BSG was supposed be my (and our) escape from the reality of the quagmire in the Middle East not another bothersome reminder that things over there aren’t going as well as we had hoped. It is extremely disappointing that the writers and producers decided to travel this path because they took a show that was fun and interesting, and different and turned it into a commonplace metaphor that is just preachy and insulting, and even more so because they didn’t even try to make the comparisons subtle. They beat us over the head and now, unfortunately for them, that forces me to change the channel.

It was fun BSG hope you have a good run but this guy isn’t interested in what you have to say anymore.
 

It's a lot more subtle than that, and many elements of the Cylon occupation of New Craprica are taken from the Nazi occupation of France and the Vichy government.

I have numerous links on my blog that go into the subtleties and how it's NOT Iraq more:
http://jacquelinepassey.blogs.com/blog/2006/10/modern_day_iraq.html
 

I agree, the analogy was completely off base. Let's hope they come to their senses.
 

Jacqueline,

I appreciate your attempt to at trying to mellow the issue by stating that the parallels are subtler than they appear but if you really focus on the content of the episode it is really clear that the current plotline is solidly an analogy to the war with Iraq. I believe that you like the show and are a true and loyal fan so your defense of it I believe comes from the right place but it is way to obvious that the writers are drawing close similarities to the current state of affairs. The quote that you posted from David Weddle really appears a way for the writers and show runners to cover their asses incase there is a backlash like the one that is obviously forming. Their main goal is to keep viewer ship up and since the particular trend in the U.S. is that the war with Iraq is unpopular they believed that they would capture a wider audience if they hit upon themes that seem to be in the public conscience. But I believe that they most likely miscalculated the negative response some of their audience would have to this new turn and now are trying to back peddle to keep those audience members like me from changing the channel.

You state, “many elements of the Cylon occupation of New Craprica are taken from the Nazi occupation of France and the Vichy government.” And that may be true (the Nazi style uniforms that they human police are wearing) but the response of the humans, at least from what I am reading, is what is bothering people like me the most. The fact that the human police was formed is again another parallel to the new Iraqi security forces. Both the main goal of the Iraqi security forces and the human police (at least on the surface) was to pass control of the safety, security and authority to those who have been occupied. Yet another evident likeness.

And to juxtapose that the humans (who we perceive as the good guys) would resort to the tactics used by the modern day terrorists (ie; hiding weapons in places of worship, using IED and suicide attacks, opening calling the human resistance “insurgents” by both the Cylons and humans) is truly what is driving this debate. And another issue that is a hot topic that a parallel can be easily drawn to is the way the humans are being put in detention camps and being held without trial, etc. This obvious similarity to the suspected terrorists being held at Gitmo helps solidify that the resemblance of the current state of things with the Battlestar Galactica isn’t a subtle as you are trying to make it out to be.

Thank you though for your thoughts they have helped to create a nice little debate. :)
 

I was looking forward to Season 3. When I heard the word "insurgents" I thought "oh, no here comes the lecture." When I saw the suicide belt, I clicked off the TV. The theme is too offensive to tolerate. I'll miss my favorite series, but I won't be back.
 

To the Anonymous who disagreed with Jacqueline-

You've done a good job of pointing out all the similarities season 3 of BSG has to the current War on Terror, but a lot of what you're saying is completely unsubstantiated. Why, for example, do you get to dismiss the Weddle quote (not to mention a lot of other stuff that Moore has said in the same vein) but bring up this whole conspiracy theory of "well, they're trying to get ratings by riding the anti-Bush train" with no proof at all?

You're also fairly confused about your history. The uniforms that the NCP are wearing aren't particularly Nazi-like - they're far more like the uniforms of Vichy France. (Take a look at the police uniforms in "Casablanca", to use one particularly blatant example, and compare them to the uniforms the cadets at the graduation ceremony are wearing.)

Likewise, the NCP are much closer to Vichy France, where the police were working hand-in-glove with the Nazis, than in Iraq, where we have both legally and practically turned over control of the country to the soverign Iraqi government. (Jeez, for a bunch of people who seem to dislike the supposed "leftist" viewpoint so much, you seem to buy in to their assumptions an awful lot.)

Likewise, the humans on New Caprica aren't being put in detention camps - they're being trucked out to remote locations and gunned down, a la "The Great Escape". Which brings up the question of what show you guys have been watching for the last two years. Starbuck torturing Leoben in "Flesh and Bone"? Admiral Cain's brutalization of Gina in "Pegasus"? Gitmo and Abu Ghraib, anyone? The entire sneak attack premise of the miniseries, which Moore explicitly says in the DVD commentary gave him a chance to examine "what 9/11 would have been like if only the people inside the Twin Towers had survived"? Are you somehow under the impression that the show is only now starting to deal with this stuff?

Wow.
 

And, Michael-

There is absolutely nothing to write about here except for the Iraq analogy. The only other subplots which only have a few minutes of airtime, are that Lee Adama is fat, and Kara Thrace is held captive by a Cylon for unknown reasons. She keeps killing him and he keeps coming back. This demonstrates the whole absurdity of the main suicide boming theme. The Cylons are infinite in number and they don't care about dying. The humans number fifty thousand (maybe less by now), so losing even a single human to kill hundreds of Cylons who will just reincarnate again seems like a bad idea. Having suicide bombers kill other humans is a geniunely suicidal tactic if the goal is the survival of the human race.

Let's take this point by point:

- For all that you blithely dismiss Lee's getting fat, you seem to be entirely blind that his condition was just as symbolic as the suicide bombings, if not moreso. It's not just Lee, the entire crew has gotten fat, soft, and spineless - the Vipers and Raptors can no longer execute basic combat manuvers, the deck crews have gotten messy, leaving their tools anywhere they please, and Adama's gotten buddy-buddy with a known Cylon, effectively using her as his shrink. Nothing to write about here? Riiiight...

- Likewise, Kara's being held for "unknown reasons"...except for the bit where Leoben tells her, point blank, that he's keeping her here so that she'll eventually love him, and pulls out their miracle hybrid baby to manipulate her into letting down her guard. This plotline's a continuation of several themes we've seen before - Leoben's obsession with Kara from "Flesh and Bone", the Cylon obsession with having kids from "The Farm" and season 1, and it provides a nicely creepy counterpoint to the relationship Boomer and Six have with their human lovers... but again, nothing to much to write about here, right?

- As for the suicide bombings, you apparently miss what's explicitly stated by Tigh - he's not killing Cylons, he's distracting them by blowing up important bits of their infrastructure, such as their human police force and their electrical plants. And yes, doing so makes it more likely that the Cylons will just start killing everybody - but if they were gonna do that, they'd have done it by now. At the end of last season, the humans were completely defenseless - had the Cylons the inclination to nuke everybody from orbit, they could have done it long before now.

So Tigh's walking a fine line between stopping the Cylons from tightening their control until Adama comes back and getting everybody killed, and he's not necessarily in the right - Roslin and Tyrol are both against him, although they don't push as hard as they could, possibly out of deference to his Ahab-like intensity. But there's still far more to think about here than "All hail the glorious martyrs against the Crusader American tyrants!" (Or words to that effect.)

As for your accusation that the show should make both sides think, again, I'll ask what show you've been watching the past two years. Roslin's clearly a good guy in story terms, and as a former policy wonk (Secretary of Education) and admitted pro-choice advocate, she's closer to the stereotypical American liberal than anybody else on the show. And yet she: 1) orders summary executions, 2) outlaws abortion, 3) tries to steal elections, and 4) unapologetically brings religion into politics. These are all utterly non-liberal positions, but the show, by and large, presents them as good things. And yet, you think the show only provides challenges to the conservative worldview?

Sure.
 

I thought this was a good series, open to people from all points of view. However, they have taken a firm anti-American position in the war on terror. For that reason, the series must be brought down. As a viewer who feels deeply betrayed, I will work with all my will to see this series cancelled.
 

The whole problem with the start of season 3, and this was becoming apparent in season 2, is that the writers are twisting the story to get their "message" across instead of telling stories based on the situation the people in the BSG universe find themselves in.

1. As pointed out originally, in what reasonable, logical thought process do suicide attacks make sense? The cylons just come back, so it doesn't matter. The toasters are replaceable and expendable.

2. How likely is it that the cylons couldn't effectively search the camp and round up the weapons?

3. With the overwhelming numbers, couldn't the cylons just put a toaster at every tent and simply smother any resistance?

4. Couldn't the Cylons relocate the human inhabitants to one or more prefabricated locations and thereby separate them from their weapons?

5. I figure they are down to approximately 45K in population. Killing each other doesn't seem particularly sensible.

6. If you expect a rescue operation, do you cause such a ruckus as to increase cylon activity? Why not be peaceful and infiltrate the new police force? It's not like the cylons can't guard the planet and at the same time crush a senseless resistance.

7. As someone at another site noticed, why do you haul people out to the woods to kill them if you want to make a statement?

The story was obviously meant to tie in with the Iraq war. The result is a story that makes you think, just not in the way the writers intended. It just makes you think how stupid and ignorant everyone is acting. Shows based on stupidity aren't exciting. Real drama comes from intelligent adversaries. You can have them make mistakes sometimes, but the whole basis of the show can't be shallow philosophy and stupidity. BSG too often is based on the stupidity of the people in charge.
 

Chris,

I am not assuming that it is some “conspiracy” that the show is mirroring the war in Iraq, I am stating plain out that it is OBVIOUS that the writers and showrunners are using the war with Iraq to model the show after.

Let’s break down you points shall we?

1) The Weddle and Moore quotes – neither of which matter when you look at what’s on the screen. It’s like me crapping on your front porch, you watching me and me saying; well this could be an insult or a way for me to express my affection for you. You decide. The crap is there and just because I say it’s not intended to be an insult, well let’s face it you have to clean it up so really it is an insult.

2) “You're also fairly confused about your history. The uniforms that the NCP are wearing aren't particularly Nazi-like - they're far more like the uniforms of Vichy France. (Take a look at the police uniforms in "Casablanca", to use one particularly blatant example, and compare them to the uniforms the cadets at the graduation ceremony are wearing.)”

In the end does it really matter what the design of the costumes are? Are you trying to say that this isn’t emblematic of a “police” formed by an occupying country to “control” it’s own citizenry? And if I am confused about history than you are really confused about current events. The Iraqi security forces work hand in glove with the America forces stationed in Iraq operating under the notion that one day control will be fully restored to the Iraqi government.

3) “Likewise, the humans on New Caprica aren't being put in detention camps.”

Did you watch the show at all, or only the last five minutes? Because if they humans aren’t being carted off to the detention center, held without due process and being tortured then where exactly was Tigh at the beginning held at the beginning of the episode? What was Roslin talking about with Baltar when she told to him about people being held in DETENTION indefinitely, without due process who are being tortured?

4) Which brings up the question of what show you guys have been watching for the last two years. Starbuck torturing Leoben in "Flesh and Bone"? Admiral Cain's brutalization of Gina in "Pegasus"? Gitmo and Abu Ghraib, anyone?

Wow that’s all really interesting. In fact I guess I must have been watching a different show for the last two years. Funny I thought that the DVDs that I bought that had BATTLESTAR GALACTICA on them were actually the same show that we are talking about now.
But I wonder what the Season 3 DVD commentary will say about what the writers and showrunners were thinking when they made the humans so closely resemble, even in name – insurgents – the people who are fighting against the American troops in Iraq?

You obviously like the show so much that you are willing to put blinders on to it’s COMPLETELY obvious parallels to the war in Iraq.

In your 2nd tirade you state –

- As for the suicide bombings, you apparently miss what's explicitly stated by Tigh - he's not killing Cylons, he's distracting them by blowing up important bits of their infrastructure, such as their human police force and their electrical plants.\

Okay – is he or is he not recruiting his own people to carry out SUICIDE attacks? This isn’t like he is trying to achieve confusion or distraction using other means that don’t take the life of one of his own. If this wasn’t supposed to be a parallel to suicide attacks they why use this method of creating disorder?

Roslin's clearly a good guy in story terms, and as a former policy wonk (Secretary of Education) and admitted pro-choice advocate, she's closer to the stereotypical American liberal than anybody else on the show. And yet she: 1) orders summary executions, 2) outlaws abortion, 3) tries to steal elections, and 4) unapologetically brings religion into politics. These are all utterly non-liberal positions, but the show, by and large, presents them as good things. And yet, you think the show only provides challenges to the conservative worldview?

Roslin was the first human to call the human resistance and insurgency. If you aren’t trying to draw a parallel why even use that word? C’mon say it with me IN-SUR-GEN-CY. Isn’t that the term that the media has been using to describe the terrorists in Iraq? And are you trying to say that the people who are working on the show can’t change and alter the story and plot line? Just because it happened in the PAST episodes doesn’t really have ANY bearing on the fact on what is happening now. They have turned the story line of a bunch of humans on the run from a group of killer robots, looking for a new home to a show that is nearly item for item the same as the war with Iraq.

AND – 1) Order summary executions --- OF ROBOTS.

2) Outlaws abortion – she even said this went against her own beliefs but had to do it because they human race was dying.
3) Tries to steal the election. The only parallel there is if you truly believe that Bush actually stole Florida, which, dear GOD, for the last time he and his group didn’t.

And finally let’s talk about my ultra-liberal buddy who I watched the show with who said WITHOUT A DOUBT in his mind that the show was a direct mirror image of what is going on in Iraq. And as such now he is determined not to miss a single episode.

Wow, sure.
 

Please find here an email I sent to the President of NBC/Universal regarding the flagrant politization of this science fiction series. Anyone who agrees should also write either NBC or the SCIFI Channel. The producers of this show obviously underestimated its viewers. May their series be cancelled!!

Mr. Randy Falco
President and Chief Operating Officer
NBC Universal Television Group

Dear Mr. Falco:
I understand that the SCIFI Channel, SCIFI.com, is a member of the NBC/Universal group of stations.
My wife and I have been regular viewers of this channel. We recently became fans of the series Battlestar Galactica. We were, however, taken aback at this week’s episode “The Occupation/Precipice” broadcast today, October the 8th. That episode is a thinly veiled commentary on the American liberation of Iraq. However, in your case, the “liberators” are inhuman aliens who terrorize the populace. In the most striking scene of the episode, the humans utilize “suicide bombers” to attack the occupiers. This tactic is justified by one of your leading characters as “desperate times JUSIIFY desparate measures” (clearly a statement pointing to a broader perspective). In addition, the new human military is portrayed as shills for the brutal occupiers (a further attach on Iraq, this time aimed at the American supported Iraqi military).
Science fiction writers, from HG Wells to Gene Roddenbury have, for years, taken contmeporary political positions under the “guise” of presenting those views in an alien landscape. If your network is able to do that, viewers who disagree with that political position also have the right to fight back and attempt by all legal means to have an offending program cancelled.
It is plainly obvious that there is a political message within this episode. What is your company attempting to accomplish? Have you considered what the implications, good and bad, of this type of programming on your company?
Seeing that we have just observed another anniversary of 9/11, my family believes your choice of programming (re: this episode) to be deeply offensive. In that light, I will actively support either more responsible programming at NBC or the cancellation of Battlestar Galactica.
 

To the gentleman who wrote the letter to NBC - Thank you and good on you. I will follow your lead.
 

Anon-

I am not assuming that it is some “conspiracy” that the show is mirroring the war in Iraq, I am stating plain out that it is OBVIOUS that the writers and showrunners are using the war with Iraq to model the show after.

Yes, the writers are making the occupation about Iraq in part. However, what you actually said was:

Their main goal is to keep viewer ship up and since the particular trend in the U.S. is that the war with Iraq is unpopular they believed that they would capture a wider audience if they hit upon themes that seem to be in the public conscience.

You then go on a rant about how it's all about Iraq, and not about Vichy France, etc. So, no, you can surely point out that there are Iraq parallels, but what you're actually saying is that Moore et al are focusing only on Iraq parallels because that's what they think the public wants, and anything else anybody points out is just covering their ass or wearing blinders.

And that's crap. And it's important to differentiate something here: when we're talking about whether the show is or is not a pure Iraq diatribe, then yes, only what's on the screen matters. But when you're attributing motives to the creators about why they made the show the way they did, then their own statements are absolutely relevant to the discussion. (As is your lack of proof to the contrary.)

That said, let's talk about what was on the screen:

In the end does it really matter what the design of the costumes are? Are you trying to say that this isn’t emblematic of a “police” formed by an occupying country to “control” it’s own citizenry?

The costume design matters because it's a direct visual allusion to another very famous situation where members of an occupied population were used as catspaws by an invading authority. To borrow a line from the show itself, "All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again." Trying to say that any resemblence to what's happening in Iraq means that the show can only be about Iraq is just ignorant.

And if I am confused about history than you are really confused about current events. The Iraqi security forces work hand in glove with the America forces stationed in Iraq operating under the notion that one day control will be fully restored to the Iraqi government.

Dude, you're wrong on two accounts here. First, Iraqi security forces are hardly working hand-in-glove with US forces: I've seen no evidence that Iraqi forces are rounding up suspected insurgents based on a no-questions-asked list like the one on the show (and, for that matter, like the Vichy France police did for the Nazis). Instead, I've seen plenty of stories that say that the police are loose cannons who all-too-often destabilize Iraqi security by taking sides in the sectarian violence.

Second, control in Iraq already has been handed over to a duly elected and soverign Iraqi government, remember? In contrast, nowhere is it ever stated or implied that the Cylons will eventually leave the humans in peace - they're there to rule the humans permanently, and everybody knows it. Which very much changes the nature of what the NCP are doing - they're not helping to get the Cylons away from the humans, despite Jammer's assertions to the contrary, they're setting themselves up to become the permanent whip hand of the Cylons.

“Likewise, the humans on New Caprica aren't being put in detention camps.”??Did you watch the show at all, or only the last five minutes? Because if they humans aren’t being carted off to the detention center, held without due process and being tortured then where exactly was Tigh at the beginning held at the beginning of the episode? What was Roslin talking about with Baltar when she told to him about people being held in DETENTION indefinitely, without due process who are being tortured?

Did you miss the "camps" part of the phrase "detention camps"? A detention camp is like a Soviet Gulag, or POW camps in WW2, or even the Japanese internment camps here in the US, where the primary purpose is isolation more than anything else. (And, occasionally, elimination of undesirables as well.) The detention cells shown in BSG were more along the lines of KGB interrogation prisons in Soviet Russia... or the "secret prisons" GWB recently admitted to running in Europe, where the primary purpose is to forcefully extract information. But again, details matter, and what's being shown on screen is hardly unique to Iraq.

But I wonder what the Season 3 DVD commentary will say about what the writers and showrunners were thinking when they made the humans so closely resemble, even in name – insurgents – the people who are fighting against the American troops in Iraq?

Man, I hate to break it to you, but the term "insurgents" existed long before Iraq, and it'll exist long after Iraq. Only somebody who's completely obsessed with Iraq would think that calling someone an insurgent means "Look, this guy's exactly like an Iraqi terrorist!"

You obviously like the show so much that you are willing to put blinders on to it’s COMPLETELY obvious parallels to the war in Iraq.

Nope, I never said the show wasn't like Iraq. I'm merely saying the show is far from being only about Iraq, or a critique of the Bush administration. And I'm surely dead against what you're saying about how they're painting the Iraqi insurgents as good guys to get better ratings.

Okay – is he or is he not recruiting his own people to carry out SUICIDE attacks? This isn’t like he is trying to achieve confusion or distraction using other means that don’t take the life of one of his own. If this wasn’t supposed to be a parallel to suicide attacks they why use this method of creating disorder?

You cut out the bit of Michael's post I was referring to - that the suicide bombings were pointless because you can't kill Cylons. I'm saying that killing Cylons isn't the point of the suicide attacks, destroying Cylon infrastructure is. There is a difference.

Now, as for whether the suicide attacks on BSG parallel the suicide attacks in Iraq, sure they do. They also parallel the suicide attacks in Palestine, the Japanese kamikazes, and the 8th century "Hashshashin" (root word of the English "assassin"), who were also essentially suicide missions. (They used a dagger instead of explosives, though.) Again, it's not just about Iraq. Certain situations - a lack of resources combined with a fanatical hatred of an enemy - generally lead to certain tactics.

(Note also that this is probably the reason the French resistance in WW2 didn't really resort to this kind of thing: they had at least some support from the Allies. Likewise, I suspect that now that Galactica's started to support Tigh's insurgency, the focus will be more on other tactics and less on suicide bombings - certainly the previews suggest that they've found other ways to frak with the Cylons.)

They have turned the story line of a bunch of humans on the run from a group of killer robots, looking for a new home to a show that is nearly item for item the same as the war with Iraq.

Right... except that A) the US, as the occupying force in Iraq, did not commit genocide on the Iraqi people, B) the Iraqis don't have a technologically advanced renegade splinter group trying to take them all to their "real" home, C) US soldiers don't download into new bodies when they're killed, D) the Iraqi insurgents are fighting each other over religious sectarian reasons even more than they're fighting US soldiers, E) the Cylons are a permanent occupying force, and the US is not, F) the US invasion was (at least nominally) about our own security, and not a desire to "love" the Iraqis...

Do I really need to go on? Or are you willing to concede that, while there certainly are similarities between what's going on in Iraq, the New Caprica storyline is light years away from being "nearly item for item the same as the war with Iraq?"

As for Roslin's actions, the point isn't whether there were extenuating circumstances - of course there were. The point is that Roslin's actions challenged liberal orthodoxy in much the same way that painting suicide bombers as being at least somewhat sympathetic (albeit with similarly extenuating circumstances) challenges conservative orthodoxy. (The difference being, apparently, that most liberals didn't want to cancel the show for showing torturers in a sympathetic light.)

And finally let’s talk about my ultra-liberal buddy who I watched the show with who said WITHOUT A DOUBT in his mind that the show was a direct mirror image of what is going on in Iraq. And as such now he is determined not to miss a single episode.

Hey, what can I say, I never said that conservatives had a monopoly on being completely oblivious to any subtlety or nuance.
 

Good comments Terrahawk. I also wonder why a human police force is necessary. Weren't the humanoid cylons supposed to bridge the gap with the humans, and more effectively communicate with the humans than the metal cylons could have? Why would the humanoid toasters decide they need human police to do the job they were created for? They don't care if they are hated, they don't want good PR, they don't need training, they don't die ... what was the point of enlisting the more fragile enemy? It's not like uniformed, masked, full-time police would have more casual contact with the resistance than known cylons. And loyalty issues prevent any extra iformation from being obtained (as seen in this episode).

Plus, there are a few models of humanoid cylons the humans haven't seen. Why not use one of those to infiltrate the humans instead of a police force?
 

Thanks axolotl.

It's already obvious that they know that Saul is leading the resista...ooops, sorry the insurrgency. (BTW, if you were trying to tie it to Vichy France, wouldn't you have the humans describe themselves as the resistance?) So, they could easily track his movements via satellite or something similar surveillance and using human or as you stated unseen Cylon model intelligence. The insurgency would collapse in about a week. This whole story has plot holes you can drive a semi-truck through. And the reason for that is they were more interested in making Iraq/war against Islamists parallels than telling an intelligent story.

Only somebody who's completely obsessed with Iraq would think that calling someone an insurgent means "Look, this guy's exactly like an Iraqi terrorist!"

Chris, there are more parallels than just the name. I don't care what Moore says in his commentary. Look at what is on the screen and it's obvious what they were driving for.

BSG Iraq/WAI
=== ====
insurgents

suicide attacks with the bomb vests even

detentions of (terrorists/insurgents) w/o due process

hide weapons in temples/mosques

bringing religion/democracy

religion of Cylons supposedly mimics intolerant religion of US

turn over security to Iraqis/humans

police night raids designed to look like U.S. military raids in Iraq.

Tigh's appearance similar to known terrorists.


They also parallel the suicide attacks in Palestine, the Japanese kamikazes, and the 8th century "Hashshashin" (root word of the English "assassin"), who were also essentially suicide missions.

You're mixing apples and oranges. A suicide attack against a military target is acceptable (i.e. kamikazes, etc.) Attacking a civilian target (i.e. a marketplace, a bus full of Israeli civilians) is immoral. They specifically talk about attacking the market in the episode. So no, they do no parallel all of the instances you describe above. The parallel the Hamas, et. al. methods of slaughtering innocents and provide justification for them without much in the way of counter-argument.

As I and other have stated, why have suicide attacks at all when they make no difference. The only reason to have them in there is to push an agenda.
 

Another parallel between BSG and Iraq is how little sense the targets make. Iraqi "insurgents" have been setting off massive suicide attacks nearly everyday - mostly in places where US troops no longer patrol (Markets, Mosques....). The majority of their victims are other Iraqis, often followers of the same type of Islam. The potential suicide bombing of human market and actualized one of the police ceremony in BSG are definitely more akin to that kind of almost non-sensical choice of target (intended to damage the infrastructure and disrupt the government) that to Palestinian bombers, who almost never perform suicide bombings in Palestinian villages, or in PA territory.

The Iraqi insurgents don't suicide bomb Americans, they never get far enough to inflict damage. So it's almost like the Americans can't be killed with that tactic (Deaths are mostly caused IED and full-on attacks). They suicide bomb other Iraqis to upset the government and the Americans vicariously, so that one day they can take over.

BSG's only parallel is Iraq as far as suicide bombing goes.
 

BTW, if you were trying to tie it to Vichy France, wouldn't you have the humans describe themselves as the resistance?

Well, the humans on the show have no idea what Vichy France even is. And the writers have branded the humans as just that - The Resistance.

So, they could easily track his movements via satellite or something similar surveillance and using human or as you stated unseen Cylon model intelligence. The insurgency would collapse in about a week. This whole story has plot holes you can drive a semi-truck through. And the reason for that is they were more interested in making Iraq/war against Islamists parallels than telling an intelligent story.

A couple of problems with this: A) we don't know what the deal is with the other Cylon models - they could be, in various ways, shapes, and forms, unsuitable for joining the Resistance at a high level. (For example, should Kacey turn out to be a Cylon, as some have speculated, it's not like Tigh would let a 2 year old girl into his operations cell.) And, for that matter, it's unlikely that Tigh would associate at all with people he didn't know very well - that he'd even hang out with Anders based on Starbuck's association with him is a stretch.

B) We simply don't know that Cylons have much in the form of surveillance technology - they haven't shown any kind of need for satellite-based surveillance, and the iPod-like transponder bugs from the miniseries and season 1 weren't exactly unnoticeable. (Not to mention, it would be difficult for the Cylons to surveil Tigh in a newly-constructed underground bunker.)

C) Cavil's using Ellen Tigh as his mole into Tigh's operation is actually quite clever - Tigh has a blind spot when it comes to Ellen, and it fits in with what we know of her character. It's also much more interesting from a dramatic standpoint than just showing Tigh being spied upon.

All that being the case, it's still basically a judgement call as to whether the episode has plot holes or not. (And a lot of good entertainment has plot holes - it's pretty much par for the course.) But y'all still have yet to provide anything but supposition that they're doing what they're doing purely to critique the US war in Iraq.

Chris, there are more parallels than just the name. I don't care what Moore says in his commentary. Look at what is on the screen and it's obvious what they were driving for.

And as I said, there certainly are some parallels. There's a world of difference between having some parallels and being "nearly item for item the same as the war with Iraq," as Anon was saying earlier.

That said, let's look at some of your parallels:

insurgents

Common throughout history.

suicide attacks with the bomb vests even

Predates both the War on Terror and 9/11 - were y'all asleep during the Palestinian Intifada, or what?

detentions of (terrorists/insurgents) w/o due process

See also Nazi Germany, Communist countries during the Cold War, Chile... in fact, virtually every autocracy ever. This is far from an issue that applies only to current US practices.

bringing religion/democracy

We're bringing religion to Iraq? Do tell! It's not even clear that the Cylons are trying to proselytize to the humans - they're doing what they're doing because one interpretation of their religion commands it. That's not why we're in Iraq.

And likewise, I'm not familiar that the Cylons are bringing democracy to the humans - far from it.

religion of Cylons supposedly mimics intolerant religion of US

The Cylons are fanatical monotheists, period. Insofar as they talk about "God's love", they play like Christian fundamentalists, insofar as they launch sneak attacks that kill innocent people, they come off more like radical Muslims. I'd say solely identifying Cylons as Christians says a lot more about modern Christian persecution complexes ("Look, modern society oppresses us terribly, even though our candidates control all three branches of government!") than about what the writers are going with.

turn over security to Iraqis/humans

See my response to Anon above.

police night raids designed to look like U.S. military raids in Iraq.

Because no military or police force ever in history used night vision goggles before we did in Iraq...

Tigh's appearance similar to known terrorists.

Tigh's been brutally maimed by his nemesis, a literary trope that goes back at least to Moby Dick. The fact that it's an eye rather than, say, a leg, simply makes more sense given that BSG is a TV program that focuses on faces much of the time. And you might want to do some reading on blind clerics - they're generally born that way, not maimed later in life.

You're mixing apples and oranges. A suicide attack against a military target is acceptable (i.e. kamikazes, etc.) Attacking a civilian target (i.e. a marketplace, a bus full of Israeli civilians) is immoral. They specifically talk about attacking the market in the episode. So no, they do no parallel all of the instances you describe above. The parallel the Hamas, et. al. methods of slaughtering innocents and provide justification for them without much in the way of counter-argument.

Actually, you're missing the point: BSG is not saying that suicide attacks are Good Things. And "without much in the way of counter-argument?" Wake up! Even Tigh says they're evil, Tyrol doesn't like them, Anders tries to dissuade Duck, and Roslin loses an argument about them to freakin' Baltar, of all people. If you can point me to one point in the entire episode where somebody says, "Yes, Duck blowing himself up was a good and moral thing to do," I'd like to see it. Tigh does it because he's ruthless and pretty much crazed... but that doesn't make him right.

Think about it for two seconds: Adama specifically said, at the end of the Pegasus arc, that "It's not enough just to survive. One must be worthy of survival." Adama, arguably, met that criteria in comparison to Admiral Cain; Tigh might very well not. That's very much up to the viewer to decide.

That said, you should, again, read your history - kamikazes were just as horrifying to the US during WW2 as suicide bombers are today. The Hashshashin were most definitely bad people, etc. Modern Middle-eastern suicide bombers are far from being uniquely evil in this regard.

As I and other have stated, why have suicide attacks at all when they make no difference. The only reason to have them in there is to push an agenda.

And as I've said before, they most certainly do make a difference - they disrupt infrastructure and prevent the humans from settling in and seeing the Cylon occupation as "normal". They don't kill Cylons, it's true, but killing the enemy is far from the only way of preventing him from winning.

The agenda is yours, not the show's.
 

axolotl-

The majority of their victims are other Iraqis, often followers of the same type of Islam.

This isn't true at all - Iraqi insurgent violence is almost always Sunni vs. Shiite. Things are not (yet) at a point where the various militias within a given sect are fighting each other.

The potential suicide bombing of human market and actualized one of the police ceremony in BSG are definitely more akin to that kind of almost non-sensical choice of target (intended to damage the infrastructure and disrupt the government) that to Palestinian bombers, who almost never perform suicide bombings in Palestinian villages, or in PA territory.

Why, exactly, is attacking infrastructure and disrupting the government "almost non-sensical"? Both the Iraqi insurgents and the humans on BSG want to do exactly that (or, more accurately, would probably like to do a lot more, but only have the means to disrupt and destroy). It's not a nice thing, but it is effective.

That said, you're making a reasonable argument that the Iraq parallel is a close one to BSG - perhaps the closest one. But it's not the only one, nor is it at all clear that the writers intend for it to be seen as a good or heroic thing.
 

It's bad enough that leftists control the major news networks, but their inability to avoid pushing their politics into concerts, television, and education is exasperating. After watching this episode of BG, I'm cancelling my DISH network subscription this week.
 

Chris - Sorry, I should have clarified that the targets almost nonsensical if you assume the insurgents' object to to attack only the "occupiers" directly on behalf of their own people, a la pre-Iraq suicide bombers. It only makes sense if their object to cause random damage in order to lead to chaos. And while violence in Iraq is usually sectarian in intent, the bombs often go off in mixed areas.

It may not be the only parallel, but they could not be any closer without completely recreating every event that led up to the current situation in Iraq. The discrepancies are probably artifacts of trying to fit this situation into an established story than the result of careful planning.
 

I'm new to this blog but I gotta tell ya, Chris, seriously dude. Get a clue man. It was obvious that the people doing the show are trying to make a comment about the war with Iraq. And secondly get a life.

I think it's awesome that the writers are using their show as a metaphore for Iraq. It ROCKS!!! It gives us the point of view of the people in Iraq. And all the people who have been thrown in Guantanamo Bay and tortured with out trial or anything.

It's jerks like you that try to water down the message that things are screwed up over there and when people in the entertainment industry try to bring the real world into your lives and bring ya'll up 2 speed on stuff ya'll turn a blind eye and to the truth.

And even though I totally agree with that other dumass who was like arguing with you at least he gets it. And by the way BUSH AND HIS BITCHES DID STEAL THE ELECTION MORON.

Peace.
 

axolotl-

And while violence in Iraq is usually sectarian in intent, the bombs often go off in mixed areas.

My understanding is that the bombs that go off in mixed areas are usually planted by foriegn fighters - Al Qeada in Iraq and the like - who are trying to just blow Iraqi civil society up. However, as you say, they're a minority compared to the sectarian violence.

It may not be the only parallel, but they could not be any closer without completely recreating every event that led up to the current situation in Iraq. The discrepancies are probably artifacts of trying to fit this situation into an established story than the result of careful planning.

I dunno, I can think of a couple of ways they could have made the show more closely parallel Iraq that they haven't done - the big one being interreligious sectarian conflict, which they could have done by pitting, say, Roslin vs. the Gemenon fundamentalists, which we've already seen some hint of with the abortion issue.

In addition, if all they were trying to do is slam GW Bush, they could have made the Cylons who've really been pushing the occupation - Caprica Six and the original Boomer - into carictures who are completely out of touch with the reality on the ground. Instead, we've shown that Cap Six and Boomer really do care about what's going on, and probably understand the situation better than any of the other Cylons, even if their strategy's not working.

Anon-

It's jerks like you that try to water down the message that things are screwed up over there and when people in the entertainment industry try to bring the real world into your lives and bring ya'll up 2 speed on stuff ya'll turn a blind eye and to the truth.

Here's where I repeat my comment about conservatives not having a monopoly on being blind to subtlely and nuance. BSG addresses some fairly eternal human questions that have relevance and resonance well beyond Iraq - I'm really sorry you can't see that.
 

Chris,

And I'm sorry that an Rtard like you can't see what's right in front of your face. What needs to happen for you to think that message here ain't that subtle?
Why do you insist on trying to make is seem a more innocuous than it actually is?

So you think your insight makes you more attune that anyone else in here? Are you that much of a righwing elitist that your opinion, and that's all that it is, is more corret than anyone elses?

Not to mention that Dean Stockwell guy makes a joke in the first part of the episode that the humans didn't "greet us (the Cylons)" with (wine and rose).

So before you come in some place and start acting like your crap don't stink try opening your eyes and realizing that the writers are trying out right to draw make a metaphore about Iraq.

Why are you trying to make it seem more universal than that? Why would the writers develop this storyline if it wasn't to make a comment about todays going ons? Why make it resemble what's going in Iraq so closely if they weren't trying to make a statement?

They could have taken the show in a million different directions, why this one? Why this one if they weren't making a statement?

You talk about minutiae, subtlely and nuance and say that we can't see what the writers truly were saying but your stating that the points being made is more understated make you look like the one who is wearing blinders.

And I'm really sorry that you can't see that.
 

By the way when Stockwell says "they didn' greet us with, ah well you know" --- that's totally mocking the notion that America had about occupying Iraq. Why would the writers throw that little line in if they didn't want to make a point about the Iraq War?
 

Anon, you're wasting your breath. I stopped listening once I read his statement of Well, the humans on the show have no idea what Vichy France even is. I mean the logic here is breathtakingly shallow. Suddenly, because the colonists "don't know about Vichy France," they can't call themselves a resistance. Instead they use the term insurgency, which in today's climate is supposed to imply certain parallels. They could have used all sorts of terms, freedom fighters, rebels, or even some other term that would apply to Colonial history.

Also, Anon, we probably disagree on a lot of subjects, but at least we can reasonably analyze what the episode intended to convey. That's more than can be said of a couple of apologists on this thread.

Chris, often producers/writers of a show will say what is in the show means one thing, but know they intended something else. It's whole intent is to protect themselves from criticism about what they really meant by the episode. It muddies the water and causes people like you to jump to their defense.
 

Anon, you're wasting your breath. I stopped listening once I read his statement of Well, the humans on the show have no idea what Vichy France even is. I mean the logic here is breathtakingly shallow. Suddenly, because the colonists "don't know about Vichy France," they can't call themselves a resistance.

Terrahawk, let me make this totally and completely blunt: you're an idiot. Had you bothered to read the entire paragraph you claim to have stopped reading at, you might have seen this bit:

And the writers have branded the humans as just that - The Resistance.

You've now doubly proven that you're all too willing to skip what people say to you, preferring instead to yell out some preconcieved notion about what they really mean. I sincerely hope someday you learn to read what's in front of you and think thoughts beyond what you already "know".

G'bye, now.
 

Hello,

I'm Chris - Everything everybody else says is wrong, even if the facts are on their side. Everything that the writers do at BSG is soooo subtle and so full of nuance. Thank god that we have me around to point that out to the rest of you all, because without me you'd come to the silly conclusion that the writers were attempting to make an obvious metaphore to the war in Iraq using silly little things that were in the 1st episode of season 3 like suicide bombers, the term insurgency used to discribe the human resistence, and all that other stuff that obviously shouldn't even be given a second look because I say that it's a more sublte metaphore than it is.

Man what would humanity do without people like me around point out your obvious flaws in logic? It's hard being so wonderful and insightful all the time.

So I guess i'll say g'bye like a limp wristed valley girl with her dads credit card.
 

I got the last word so I RULE!!! Take that Chris. RUN AWAY, RUN AWAY. That's all you know how to do. Sucka. I WIN!!!!
 

I don't think BSG Season 3 is subtle, one of the Cylons comes out and says "What did you think they were gonna greet us with flowers?"

HaHa, I love the fact this Pro-BSG site is turning into an Anti-BSG site because the blogger refuses to admit going into Iraq was a big mistake.
 

The suicide attack was kick-ass! Bravo BSG for laying the smack down on those Cylon Sympathizers. Is there a Congressional Medal of Honor in BSG or what? Talk about Above and beyond the call of duty! He wasted all the Kapos and the Cylon humanoids singlehandedly!

Too Bad Cylons are buddhists and just get reincarnated all the time...
 

So basically your beef is that the storyline conflicts with your own political leanings? I doubt Ron Moore gives a shit, to be frank. And by the way, you're not following the show very well. It was made very clear why the Cylons didn't just destroy the last of the humans.
 

1)Re: the cancellation request letter. What sort of "legal action" does one take to cancel a TV show that one doesn't like? Can I get my lawyer working on Grey's Anatomy? How about the War at Home? Whether or not BSG does advance left-leaning sentiments, this is certainly not grounds for cancellation.

2)What's wrong with BSG touching on contemporary events? I understood this idea to be the reason why the new BSG exists in the first place. Part of what makes it good is that it is not strictly escapist fare. There are some parallels to Iraq, but I think show let's you draw your own conclusions. Season three (like the whole series) deals with issues of moral ambiguity. These issues are sometimes (gulp) more complex than the simplistic, divisive right vs. left ideology that mars so much current public discourse.

3)Do you appreciate how childish it is to say that you'll never watch the show again? It sounds like a pouting child who gets his feelings hurt and says, "Fine. I don't want to play anymore. I'm taking my ball and I'm going home." You're acting like the show betrayed you. It didn't. Grow up.

4)I understand metaphors, but the fact that this show does have robots and spaceships in it skews things just a little bit.
 

Most of the comments show nothingelse but grief and pain over the fact that, in the real world, the USA has lost the automatic "good guy" status. Well, tough luck, the US citizens have voted for this policy. But maybe, just maybe, watching similar problems in a good show will help some watcherslose their unilateral and "forever yesterday" perspective and open theirminds to the complexities of the world out there. You want escapism? Go jogging!
 

Speculative fiction has always drawn much of it's content from the headlines of the day. It's part of what gives it widespread appeal and makes it relevant. But scifi remains an escapist venture. I don't generally seek out scifi so that I can learn more about current events or to have my political viewpoint changed, but to do just the opposite. The BSG abortion thing was well handled and relatively brief. Being beaten up about Iraq for 2 hours is not good entertainment.

While it Nazi occupied France allegory from some 60 years ago might be subtle and nuanced, why go back that far when Iraq is all over the news daily?

But it doesn't matter.

The point is this: I am no longer enjoying a movie or show when I find myself thinking about the producers' political viewpoint. My suspension of disbelief evaporates and I end up turning it off. In fact, I stopped the premiere about halfway through to see if there was any news or commentary on the Internet about BSG and Iraq. And here I find myself. Popular entertainment shouldn't make me turn it off so I can vent on some random (but well done) blog.

The bottom line to this entire debate is that this entire debate shouldn't be happening. The writers and producers should stay true to the story instead of forcing a two-hour US foreign policy critique and lecture on us. Sure, it got us to talk about it and air our opinions, but it mostly made people mad and started flame wars about politics.

I will now force myself to finish the premiere and hope that this foray into current events is like those rare episodes of Diff'rent Strokes or Growing Pains where they tackle such after-school-special issues like drugs, premarital sex, and not talking to strangers.